Jesus in John 8:40 declared that he was an absolute human. How can he then be GOD?

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Rebuttal to Sam Shamoun’s article

A Series of Answers to Common Questions

Sami Zaatari

This article of Shamoun is some what similar to his previous article ' A Christian defense of the Gospel to the Muslims'. For the rebuttal to that article click here (*). Many of the arguments which Shamoun shows with his responses have already been adressed in his common answers to common questions section and his previous article. Here are the rebuttals to his section of common questions to common answers: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [11] [8]. Now to his article.

He wrote:

Charge #1

In John 8:40, Jesus declares to the Jews, "But now you seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

The Greek term for man, anthropos, implies one who is absolutely human, distinct from God and animals. This would in effect eliminate the divinity of Jesus, proving that Christ was only human.

Response

There is nothing within the word anthropos that denies John’s clear affirmation that the Lord Jesus Christ is God’s eternal Word who became flesh:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind ... Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory - the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father." John 1:1-4, 14 NET Bible

Had the objector continued reading further into the context of John, he would have found the Lord Jesus acknowledging his eternal preexistence:

"He said to them, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins.’" John 8:23-24

"So Jesus said to them, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.’" John 8:28

"Jesus replied, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here.’" John 8:42 NET

"‘Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.’ Then the Jewish people who had been listening to him replied, ‘You are not yet fifty years old! Have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I AM!’ Then they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out from the temple area." John 8:56-59 NET

These passages demonstrate that Christ existed before Abraham, came down out of heaven from the Father’s presence and is the Eternal I AM (a title used in reference to Yahweh God). Cf. Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10-11; 44:6; 48:12

Therefore, in light of John’s Christology the use of anthropos simply conveys that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, perfectly uniting within his one Person two distinct natures. Jesus is very God of very God, and man as God intended man to be.

My Response:

To start of here is a link that shows the real translation of John 1:1:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/john1_1.htm

As for Jesus saying I AM, this does not prove he is God. Let us post some of the verses Shamoun posted:

So Jesus said to them, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.’" John 8:28

That is the important part of the verse which Shamoun missed. Those words basically prove that without a doubt Jesus is not God. Why would Jesus make such a statement after making a claim that he is God? You believe Jesus saying I AM makes him God, if so then why would he say such a statement right after saying I AM? The fact is Jesus said those words to show he is a prophet and that he is not God and the fact that he says I AM means nuthing special it is just the desire of Christians to make it seem as if Jesus is claiming to be God when he is claiming something tottally opposite.

Shamoun then posts:

No where in those passages does Jesus say he existed before Abraham, this is bad mis handling and mis-understanding of the text. The fact that Jesus said that before Abraham he was, does not mean he existed literally. I would like Shamoun to prove me wrong on that and show me the passages do in fact show Jesus EXISTED before Abraham, because no where in those passages do we see Jesus claiming that he did exist and was on earth or in heaven. Shamoun may believe that this passage shows that he did exist: Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.’

Not even this passage shows Jesus as being existent before Abraham, let us look at it for ourselves.

Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day. So in fact when Jesus says MY DAY it basically means MY TIME, so Abraham was happy to see Jesus' time come and finally bring the children of Israel back to God, and of course Abraham would we overjoyed because they are his offspring! If Jesus existed before Abraham he would have said Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see ME, Not to see my day. To see my day means to see my time, and what time is that? The time when Jesus is sent by God to bring the children of Israel back to God, and Jesus was also their messiah. Their Saviour even giving more reason to why Abraham would be overjoyed to see Jesus' day come.

Now of course the Jews who couldn’t think outside the box misunderstood what Jesus meant just like Shamoun does, and they took it for something else that he literally existed before Abraham: Then the Jewish people who had been listening to him replied, ‘You are not yet fifty years old! Have you seen Abraham?

So they took it in a literal sense, however so let us even look at Jesus' answer which will even make it more clear that he did not literally exist before Abraham, let us quote the Jews remarks and Jesus' response: Then the Jewish people who had been listening to him replied, ‘You are not yet fifty years old! Have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I AM!

Jesus did not say he existed before Abraham! Look at his response and you can see it for yourself that Jesus did not say he literally existed before Abraham. Jesus never said I SAW ABRAHAM, he said BEFORE Abraham was that I AM. Christians will say that is proof! Actually it is not, because before Abraham so was I and Shamoun and every other living being on this planet. God has foreknowledge of all his creation before he even creates them and puts them into existence. However so I know many Christians will be saying well what was so special about Jesus saying that? It isn’t something very special since we are all already known before our existence and so on. However when you get the big picture it makes very much sense to why Jesus would make such a statement. Let us see the reasons.

1- Abraham is the father of the Jews, and a very important figure to them. He is loved and honoured by all Jews and has a very high status.

2- Jesus is the messiah to the Jews, their saviour.

3- Jesus was a prophet sent to the Jews to bring them back to God.

So when you have all those three points it becomes clear that Jesus was showing the Jews of his own HIGH STATUS. Jesus was sent to the Jews, who were from Abraham, and Jesus was their messiah and prophet, and the Jews honour and love Abraham. So Jesus said that to show them of his own importance to them ranking right beside Abraham. He was showing them that he is on the same rank and high status of Abraham. That is exactly why Jesus used Abraham and not Adam or Noah. Jesus used Abraham because Jews are from Abraham and Jesus was sent to the Jews. So Jesus is basically showing his importance to them and that even before his existence and his creation that God had already planned on sending him to children of Israel as a messiah and a saviour and last prophet. So it becomes evidently clear to why Jesus would make such a statement. Sadly the Jews misunderstood him. There is no proof that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because he was claiming to be God either. The facts are there for all to see. The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because he claimed to be in existence before Abraham, and he was not even very old or old enough to have been alive back then, so they wanted to kill him for making such a statement, which they believed to be a lie. They did not want to kill him for claiming to be God.

So the fact is, Jesus saying ‘I am’ didn’t make him God. The verse doesn’t even show that Jesus literally existed before Abraham or that the Jews wanted to kill him for claiming to be God. Jesus is fully man and is not God at all.

He wrote:

Charge #2

Numbers 23:19 states that "God is not a man that he should lie, or a son of man that he should repent." Yet, Jesus was both man and son of man. (Cf. Matthew 16:13)

Response

This passage does not deny that God could take on human form, but is simply stating that he is not man by nature. Since God is not human by nature he cannot change his mind nor lie, traits which are common of fallen men. To show that this is the correct interpretation of the passage we only need to look at other OT citations which show God appearing in human form (called theophanies) and prophecies which actually claim that God will become a true human being. Note for instance the following passages:

"The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw THREE MEN standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. He said, ‘If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash YOUR FEET and rest under this tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way - now that you have come to your servant.’ ‘Very well,’ they answered, ‘do as you say’ ... He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. WHILE THEY ATE, he stood near them under a tree. ‘Where is your wife Sarah?’ they asked him. ‘There, in the tent,’ he said. THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son’ ... THEN THE LORD SAID TO ABRAHAM, ‘Why did Sarah laugh and say, "Will I really have a child, now that I am old?" Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.’ Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, ‘I did not laugh.’ BUT HE SAID, ‘Yes, you did laugh.’ WHEN THE MEN GOT UP TO LEAVE, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?’ ... THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.’ The men turned away and went toward Sodom, BUT ABRAHAM REMAINED STANDING BEFORE THE LORD. Then Abraham APPROACHED HIM and said: W‘Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing - to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?’ THE LORD SAID, ‘If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake’ ... WHEN THE LORD HAD FINISHED SPEAKING WITH ABRAHAM, HE LEFT, and Abraham returned home." Genesis 18:1-5, 8-10a, 13-17, 20-26, 33

"So Jacob was left alone, and A MAN wrestled with him till daybreak. When THE MAN saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with THE MAN. Then THE MAN said, ‘Let me go, for it is daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ THE MAN asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then THE MAN said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.’ Jacob said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he replied, ‘Why do you ask my name?’ Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘It is because I SAW GOD FACE TO FACE, and yet my life was spared.’" Genesis 32:24-30

Both Abraham and Jacob saw God appear to them in the form of a man!

And:

"For to us a child IS BORN, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulders. For he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

In fact, God is also called a man of war!

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3 KJV

"The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13 KJV

To therefore use Numbers 23:19 to disprove the Incarnation is simply erroneous to say the least. The passage is simply affirming that God's essence is distinct from man, without denying the fact that God could/would eventually become man, taking on a real human nature.

My Response:

This has already been addressed here [11]

He wrote:

Charge #3

Exodus 33:20 clearly shows that no one can see God and live, and yet Jesus was seen by many.

Response

The passage does not deny that God can appear in human form, but that no man can behold the unveiled glory of God's essence in its fullness. That is precisely why God appears in human form, so that man may see him face to face. The fact that man can view a veiled form of God is expressly stated in Exodus 24:9-11:

"Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up, and they SAW the God of Israel; and there was under HIS FEET something like a pavement made of sapphire, and clear like the heaven itself. But he did not lay a hand on the leaders of the Israelites, so they SAW God, and they ate and they drank." NET

My Response:

This has already been addressed here [11.b] [7]

He wrote:

Charge #4

Job 25:4 records that a man born of a woman cannot be clean before God, a statement reiterated in 15:14. Jesus was born of a woman and impure before God, and therefore cannot be God.

Response

It must be stated that the Holy Bible accurately records events and conversations without necessarily condoning them. For instance, Genesis records Lot's daughters getting their father drunk enough to have sex with him in order to preserve human life. (Cf. Genesis 19:30-38)

Another example would be Samson sleeping with a harlot. (Cf. Judges 16:1)

The Holy Bible records these stories not because it condones such actions, but that these events did actually take place and serve as illustrations of man's depraved sinful nature.

Likewise, the passages from Job reflect the views of Job's friends, i.e. Eliphaz the Temanite (cf. 15:14) and Bildad the Shuhite (cf. 25:4). They do not necessarily reflect God’s view of the situation, since not everything these men said were pleasing to God:

"After the Lord had spoken these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, ‘My anger is stirred up against you and your two friends, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has. So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job will intercede for you, and I will respect him, so that I do not deal with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has.’" Job 42:7-8 NET

In order to determine when a person’s statements or opinions are in agreement with the Word of God we need to turn to the passages of Scripture which reflect God's view of things. When this is done one finds that although the Holy Bible agrees that man is evil by nature, there is a way for a person to be born from a woman and still be pure and holy in God’s sight:

"In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, ‘Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.’ Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.’ ‘How will this be,’ Mary asked the angel, ‘since I am a virgin?’ The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. SO THE HOLY ONE TO BE BORN WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD.’" Luke 1:26-35

Luke answers the question of Job’s friends. The way that a person born of a woman can be holy before God is if he were born supernaturally of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, thus purifying the child from the stain of sin. Since Jesus was the only one conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit to a virgin, he alone amongst the sons of men is Holy from conception. Everyone else become holy through his or her union with the Lord Jesus, God’s sinless Savior.

My Response:

Shamoun did a good trick there I must say. He invents up something by posting Luke 1:26-35 to show that this is why Job 25:4 and 15:14 don’t apply to Jesus. However so the fact is even the verses he posted does not change any thing. Let us quote Luke and see the context:

Mary asked the angel, ‘since I am a virgin?’ The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. SO THE HOLY ONE TO BE BORN WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD.

The context is clear. Mary is asking how can she have a child when she is a virgin. The angels simply answers her by telling her how the spirit will come upon her and the most high will overshadow her so the holy one will be born. The verse is basically saying how such a miraculous birth can take place. The verse does not show that Jesus is exempted by Job 25:4 and 15:14. Shamoun tries to deceive the reader by trying to show that the miraculous birth and the way it takes place means Jesus is no longer unclean since he is born of a women. However so Shamoun may also try to trick the reader into thinking that just because Jesus was called holy this makes him pure and unclean, quite the contrary indeed, consult this rebuttal [2] and see for yourself where I refute such a silly claim. Shamoun then says Jesus is called the Holy ONE of God, this still doesn’t change anything, what would Shamoun prefer Jesus to be called? The fact it says holy ONE is because Jesus is one person, one being, he is not 10 persons or 3 persons but 1 person, so hence he is called the holy ONE. Holy one means messenger (Daniel 4:23). So Jesus is a messenger of God. I totally agree. The fact remains that Shamoun tried to trick his readers into thinking the miraculous birth exempted him from the previous verses when in fact it did not. Luke was basically saying how such a miraculous birth could take place.

He wrote:

Charge #5

In Mark 2:1-12, Jesus forgives a paralytic's sins without having to die for that man. This affirms that Christ's death in place of sinners was unnecessary and unbiblical. Furthermore, Christians often use this text as proof that Jesus is God since God alone forgives sins. But in John 20:22 we are told that the disciples were given authority to forgive sins as well. Are they God as well?

Response

Christ could pardon sinners based on the certain knowledge that he was going to die for them on the cross. The Scriptures state that Christ's sacrifice had already transpired in the foreknowledge of God, having been ordained before the foundation of the world:

"Israelite men, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed through him among you, just as you yourselves know - this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles. But God raised him up, having released him from the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held in its power." Acts 2:22-24

"For both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do as much as your power and your plan had decided beforehand would happen." Acts 4:27-28

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for you ... " 1 Peter 1:19-20 NKJV

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8

God, because of this, temporarily overlooked the sins of His chosen ones and spared them from eternal punishment, justifying them on the basis of the imputation of Christ’s perfect righteousness and his vicarious death:

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance, God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:24-26 NKJV

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31 NKJV

As far as John 20:22 is concerned, the disciples were given authority from Christ to forgive sinners. Yet Christ could forgive sinners by virtue of His divine nature since he is the source of salvation and forgiveness.

The disciples were Christ’s instruments to preach the Gospel by which sinners could be saved and forgiven:

"He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’ Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached IN HIS NAME to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.’" Luke 24:44-48

"But to all who have received him - those who believe in his name - he has given the right to become God's children - children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband's decision, but by God. John 1:12-13

"Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples that are not recorded in this book. But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:30-31 NET

"God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel." Acts 5:31

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through HIS NAME." Acts 10:43

"‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith IN ME.’" Acts 22:16-18

To put it simply: the disciples are the moon that derives and reflects the light which emanates from the one true source, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. Cf. Malachi 4:2

My Response:

To start off Jesus being able to forgive sins is not something special making him Godly, it would make him Godly if you took it out of context and intentionally twist it like Shamoun and Christians do. Visit these rebuttals to see how it does not mean anything special [3] [1].

Secondly if Jesus did in fact die, then this disqualifies him as God, no matter what you take death as, death is not for the creator, and it is for the creation. We as humans die to end one life to be resurrected to the next life to be judged and so on, what purpose would it have for Jesus to die? None. That is one flaw in the Jesus dying episode if he is God. And once again God never dies. Visit this rebuttal for more information [4].

He wrote:

Charge #6

Jesus Christ in John 13:16 states that a "servant is not greater than his lord; neither he who is sent is greater than he who sends him." Since God sent Christ, the latter cannot possibly be equal to the Father.

Response

The passage does not deny equality but negates the fact of one being greater than his master or sender in position. No Christian believes that Jesus is greater than his Father, but equal with Him in essence and nature, although subject to him in authority. The objector has committed a categorical fallacy, confusing nature with rank or position. More on this below.

My Response:

This has already been addressed here (*).

He wrote:

Charge #7

1 Corinthians 11:3 teaches that the head of Christ is God, making Jesus less than true deity, and therefore inferior to God.

Response

To understand Paul's meaning we must read the entire verse:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

To say that Christ is not equal to God because God is his head would also imply that women are inferior to men since the one is head over the other. However, the Holy Bible clearly indicates that both men and women are equal in worth since both are created in the image of God and are one flesh. (Cf. Genesis 1:26-28, 2:24, 5:1-2)

Paul says essentially the same thing:

"For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man ... In any case, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman. But all things come from God." 1 Corinthians 11:7-8, 11-12

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female - for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

In fact, it is the woman who is called the mother of all the living. (Cf. Genesis 3:20)

In light of the foregoing, headship here simply means that man is superior to women in position, not in essence or value. Likewise, Christ is subject to the Father in position because he is the Son and because he is fully human also. Since Christ is the Son, not the Father or the Holy Spirit, he remains in subjection to his Father. Yet just as human sons are subject to but equal with their fathers in nature, the divine Son is also equal with his divine Father in nature and essence.

Furthermore, since the Lord Jesus retains his human nature forever, eternally existing as the God-man, as well as being man’s ultimate head and representative before God, he remains forever subject to the Father. (Cf. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 45-49; 1 Timothy 2:5-6)

My Response:

I could careless to what Paul has to say; here are links, which show the truth about Paul:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/qumran.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/james.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paula.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/coward.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/yahshua's.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/12th_apostle.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/hebrews.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/law_stands.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/attri_part_3.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/word.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

http://www.hiddencodes.com/apostle_paul.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/paul.html

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_baptism.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/baptism_rebuttal.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/2tim3_16.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_or_god_words.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_docs.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Paul/esau.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Sources/paul-talmud.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Paul/paul_and_islam.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Sources/elijah.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Text/pauline.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Commentary/paulinspire.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Text/paradox.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/genital_mutilation.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/pauls_head_covering.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_peter_contra.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_peter_contra_rebuttal.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/conflict.htm

Any Christian who would like to see the truth on Paul could go read all those sites that have been posted and then judge for yourself.

He wrote:

Charge #8

1 Corinthians 15:28 is another passage that shows that Christ is not God since he is made subject to the Father for all eternity.

Response

This passage does not imply that Christ is inferior to God in terms of his nature and essence. It only shows that he is subject in rank and position. As we have already noted, Christ is subject to God by virtue of his being God’s Son and by being fully human to the core, albeit a glorified human at that.

To support the point that Paul is speaking of position here, not essence and nature, all one has to do is look at the specific Greek word used by the inspired Apostle, i.e. hupotageesetai. The word stems from the Greek verb hupotasso, and is used in Holy Scripture to refer to position or rank:

"Then he (Jesus) went down to Nazareth with them (Joseph and Mary) and was obedient (hupotassomenos) to them. Luke 2:51 NIV

Christ was made subject to his parents by virtue of his being their son. He was not made inferior in nature to them in anyway, since he was the Savior who had come to save them and others from their sin. (Cf. Matthew 1:21)

"Everyone must submit (hypotassesthoo) himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." Romans 13:1 NIV

Christians are also commanded to submit to one another:

"Submit (hupotassomenoi) to one another out of reverence for Christ." Ephesians 5:21 NIV

Finally, the context of 1 Corinthians 15:28 shows that the Greek passive hupotageesetai should be taken as a middle voice. This would mean that the Son is not being made subject, but is actually willfully subjecting himself to the Father. Greek scholar Spiros Zodhiates notes:

The translation of the verb as "the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One" is very misleading. It is taken as a passive, whereas the exegesis demands that it should be taken as a middle voice which means that the Lord Jesus Christ at the completion of His mediatorial work subjects Himself to the One who had subjected all things unto Him. It is a voluntary act and not a compulsory subjugation of one person of the Trinity to the other. This is not something which took place while the Lord Jesus was the God-Man on earth, but it is something that will take place in the future when all people will be made subject unto Christ, and then He will finally subject Himself with the finished work of redemption before God the Father. One of the greatest difficulties of the translation of the N.T. lies in discerning when the passive form should be taken with the passive meaning or the middle voice meaning, as, for instance, Jesus Christ "is made subject" or He "subjects Himself." (Zodhiates, New American Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible [AMG Publishers, Chattanooga, TN, 1990], p. 1530)

In light of this, note how the following translations render the verse in question:

· then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him. Amplified Bible

· the Son will present himself to God. NLT

· the Son will put himself under God's authority. GOD's Word

· then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God. The Good News Translation

· then he will put himself under God. New Century Version

It becomes clear in light of the foregoing that the term "submit" or "subject" does not necessarily imply that the person that is submitting is inferior in nature and essence to the other. It can simply refer to a person being in a lesser position of authority. In light of the clear NT teaching that the Lord Jesus is fully and essentially God, the term submission when referring to Christ relates to his position. It does not prove the Muslim contention that the Son is inferior to the Father as far as nature and essence is concerned.

My Response:

For a bit of Paul please visit these rebuttals:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/qumran.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/james.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paula.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/coward.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/yahshua's.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/12th_apostle.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/hebrews.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/law_stands.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/attri_part_3.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/word.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

http://www.hiddencodes.com/apostle_paul.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/paul.html

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_baptism.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/baptism_rebuttal.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/2tim3_16.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_or_god_words.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_docs.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Paul/esau.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Sources/paul-talmud.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Paul/paul_and_islam.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Sources/elijah.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Text/pauline.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Commentary/paulinspire.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Bible/Text/paradox.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/genital_mutilation.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/pauls_head_covering.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_peter_contra.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/paul_peter_contra_rebuttal.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/conflict.htm

He wrote:

Charge #9

Luke 2:52 states that "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." This passages shows that Jesus is distinct from God, which makes it impossible for him to be God. Furthermore, Christ is said to have grown in wisdom and stature. Yet, God does not grow since He is immutable.

Response

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it assumes Unitarianism, that God is one Being and one Person. The logic of the argument goes something like this:

God is only one Person.

Jesus is a distinct Person from God.

Therefore, Jesus cannot be God.

The major problem with this syllogism is that premise 1 is false since God does not exist as one Person according to the Holy Bible. Jesus could therefore be distinct from God, while also being God at the same time.

Secondly, while as a real human being Christ grew in knowledge and experience, as God he remains the same since his divine nature is unchanging:

"And, ‘You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. And they will all grow old like a garment, and like a robe you will fold them up and like a garment they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never run out.’" Hebrews 1:10-12 NET

The preceding citation is quite astonishing since the inspired author applies Psalm 102:25-27 to the Son. The inspired author has God praising and addressing his own beloved Son as Yahweh God who created the universe and who always remains immutable!

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8

These passages show that it is not an either/or situation, but both/and. Christ grew as a man and remained immutable as God

My Response:

Christ grew as a human because he always was human and never God. As for Hebrews 13:8 I will quote a piece from one my previous rebuttals to Shamoun, which can be found here [8]. From the rebuttal:

Let me just refute Shamoun on Hebrews 13:8, because the verse actually hurts his argument of Jesus being God, it hurts it VERY BADLY! If Jesus is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow, then this means Jesus was always in need of things from the Father! If Jesus is always the same then Jesus NEVER owned anything of his own! He never had his own authority and power. As the verse says Jesus is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever. We cannot say that before Jesus took on the flesh, that he was all-powerful and mighty, because this is totally illogical and against what the verse is stating. Once Jesus became man he completely CHANGED from his former state, in his former state, which we are to believe, is that he was all-powerful and not bound by the flesh. However the fact is obvious, once he became man he CHANGED a lot, he became a servant and let go of his powers or so we are told. And if Shamoun believes that Jesus is the same tomorrow, meaning the future, then this means Jesus was still bound by the flesh, because if he did change back to his former state of being which is to be divine, then that is a huge change! So overall Jesus changes two times, the first is when he became a man (he was given everything, unlike when he was in his divine state), the second is when Jesus returned back to his fully divine state and no longer being bound by the flesh. So overall if Shamoun believes Hebrews 13:8, then this means Jesus was never God! Because the verse says Jesus never changed, he is always the same, so this means he was always bound by the flesh and in need of things, and that my friend does not work. However the problem does not stop there, the verse says Jesus does not change in the same sense that God does not change. However so we have established what is meant by God not changing, and the fact is Jesus does change in the way God says he will not change, which is to become LIKE a man which is to give up his powers and attributes etc. So the verse itself is a mistake! Because Jesus did in fact go through two huge changes. However if Christians are to blind or to proud to admit the verse is not a mistake, then they will have to accept the fact that Jesus did not ever change, meaning when he took on the flesh, that was not a change, so basically it means Jesus was ALWAYS like a man and was always limited. That conclusion also still leaves the Christian with a problem! If Jesus was always LIKE a man, and being bound by flesh and being limited, then that means God did not know what he talking about when he said he is not LIKE a man, because there was already one person within the God-head who was LIKE a man and a man in every sense. So one must ask why did God say he is not LIKE a man when Jesus was always LIKE a man? Did God not know? Or was Jesus never like a man and did in fact change when he took on the flesh and limited himself contradicting the very words of God that he is not LIKE a man that he does not change. So either way the Christian is still left with a lot of problems.

1- If you truly believe Hebrews 13:8, then this means Jesus never changed and was always bound by the flesh and being limited, which that in itself proves he is not God.

2- If you believe the verse, then this means Jesus never changed and was always bound by the flesh, and that the Bible is lying when it says Jesus let go of his powers and became like a servant.

3- If you believe Jesus never changed, then this means Jesus was always bound by the flesh and being limited as a man, then this would make no sense in God saying he is not LIKE a man, and that he does not change. Either God did not know there was a Jesus who was LIKE a man, and a man in every sense, or God just didn’t know what he was talking about.

4- However the Bible makes it clear Jesus was not always bound by the flesh, and took it on and limited himself and became LIKE a man, that in itself contradicting the words of God when he says he is not LIKE a man. As we have already explained what is meant by God not changing, meanings his attributes, his powers, his essence and his qualities, Jesus changed in every single way if he is God.

5- Jesus did in fact change two times, the first time is when he became a man and limited himself, which is a change, as he let go of his powers, and attributes, and as we have already shown earlier, this is a huge change when we take the words of God that he is not LIKE a man, Jesus was LIKE a man and Jesus became LIKE a man on his will! Obviously if Jesus is God he forgot when God said he is not LIKE a man. The second change Jesus went through is when he died and came back to life in his divine state of being, two obvious changes.

So Christians can decide what to believe about the verse, but the verse will still cause them a lot of problems. I will leave this for Shamoun and every Christian to solve.

He wrote:

Charge #10

John 17:3 indicates that the Father alone is the only true God, which means that Jesus Christ is not the true God.

Response

A careful reading of the context shows that the Lord Jesus did not deny his Deity:

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people THAT HE MIGHT GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN ... For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me ... All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come TO ME through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name - the name you gave me - so that they may be one as we are one ... My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I IN THEM and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me BECAUSE YOU LOVED ME BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them AND THAT I MYSELF MAY BE IN THEM.’" John 17:1-5, 8, 10-11, 20-26

Jesus here affirms that:

He is God's Son (v. 2).

He gives eternal life to all that God gives him. This shows that he is God Almighty since only God can give eternal life (v. 2).

He existed in glory with the Father even before the world (v. 5).

He demands to receive glory and be glorified alongside the Father. No creature can make such a demand (vv. 2, 5).

All things that belong to God also belong to him (v. 10).

He will personally indwell all the believers, a claim of omnipresence. This again demonstrates that Jesus is God since only God is omnipresent (vv. 20-23, 26).

He has been the object of the Father's love even before the creation of the world (v. 24).

These points should indicate to the readers that Jesus was not denying his Deity, but simply affirming that the Father is fully and underived Deity. Jesus was acknowledging what every God-believing Jew must acknowledge, namely that the Father is the only true God. Since the Bible teaches that Jesus was both God and man, man as God intended man to be, it should not surprise us to find the man Christ Jesus acknowledging the Deity of his Father. After all, isn't it true that the Father is truly God?

Secondly, we must bear in mind that the three Persons of the Godhead take pleasure in glorifying the others as the following verses demonstrate:

"When Jesus heard this, he said, "This sickness will not lead to death, but to God's glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it." John 11:4 NET

"When Judas had gone out, Jesus said, ‘Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and he will glorify him right away." John 13:31-32 NET

"He (the Holy Spirit) will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." John 16:14 NET

"As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow - in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess to the glory of God the Father that Jesus Chr